Sets that are both Sum-free and Product-free
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Let $P_o$ be the primes excluding $2$. $P_o subset mathbb{N}$ has the following property $Q$:
- For any $a,b in P_o$, $a + b notin P_o$.
- For any $a,b in P_o$, $ab notin P_o$.
So both addition and multiplication necessarily leave the set $P_o$.
$P_o$ has natural density $0$.
Q1. Is there a set $S subset mathbb{N}$ with positive density
that satisfies property $Q$?
Answered quickly by @JoséCarlosSantos: Yes.
Permit me then to add a new question:
Q2. What is largest density $S subset mathbb{N}$
that satisfies property $Q$?
Santos's example has density $frac{1}{3}$.
number-theory elementary-number-theory prime-numbers infinity
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Let $P_o$ be the primes excluding $2$. $P_o subset mathbb{N}$ has the following property $Q$:
- For any $a,b in P_o$, $a + b notin P_o$.
- For any $a,b in P_o$, $ab notin P_o$.
So both addition and multiplication necessarily leave the set $P_o$.
$P_o$ has natural density $0$.
Q1. Is there a set $S subset mathbb{N}$ with positive density
that satisfies property $Q$?
Answered quickly by @JoséCarlosSantos: Yes.
Permit me then to add a new question:
Q2. What is largest density $S subset mathbb{N}$
that satisfies property $Q$?
Santos's example has density $frac{1}{3}$.
number-theory elementary-number-theory prime-numbers infinity
$endgroup$
8
$begingroup$
Instead of adding a question after receiving an answer to your original question, you should ask that other question separately
$endgroup$
– Hagen von Eitzen
17 hours ago
$begingroup$
Could you edit your question to specify that you are (apparently) more interested in upper natural density rather than just natural density?
$endgroup$
– Erick Wong
13 secs ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Let $P_o$ be the primes excluding $2$. $P_o subset mathbb{N}$ has the following property $Q$:
- For any $a,b in P_o$, $a + b notin P_o$.
- For any $a,b in P_o$, $ab notin P_o$.
So both addition and multiplication necessarily leave the set $P_o$.
$P_o$ has natural density $0$.
Q1. Is there a set $S subset mathbb{N}$ with positive density
that satisfies property $Q$?
Answered quickly by @JoséCarlosSantos: Yes.
Permit me then to add a new question:
Q2. What is largest density $S subset mathbb{N}$
that satisfies property $Q$?
Santos's example has density $frac{1}{3}$.
number-theory elementary-number-theory prime-numbers infinity
$endgroup$
Let $P_o$ be the primes excluding $2$. $P_o subset mathbb{N}$ has the following property $Q$:
- For any $a,b in P_o$, $a + b notin P_o$.
- For any $a,b in P_o$, $ab notin P_o$.
So both addition and multiplication necessarily leave the set $P_o$.
$P_o$ has natural density $0$.
Q1. Is there a set $S subset mathbb{N}$ with positive density
that satisfies property $Q$?
Answered quickly by @JoséCarlosSantos: Yes.
Permit me then to add a new question:
Q2. What is largest density $S subset mathbb{N}$
that satisfies property $Q$?
Santos's example has density $frac{1}{3}$.
number-theory elementary-number-theory prime-numbers infinity
number-theory elementary-number-theory prime-numbers infinity
edited 14 mins ago
Joseph O'Rourke
asked yesterday
Joseph O'RourkeJoseph O'Rourke
18.1k349111
18.1k349111
8
$begingroup$
Instead of adding a question after receiving an answer to your original question, you should ask that other question separately
$endgroup$
– Hagen von Eitzen
17 hours ago
$begingroup$
Could you edit your question to specify that you are (apparently) more interested in upper natural density rather than just natural density?
$endgroup$
– Erick Wong
13 secs ago
add a comment |
8
$begingroup$
Instead of adding a question after receiving an answer to your original question, you should ask that other question separately
$endgroup$
– Hagen von Eitzen
17 hours ago
$begingroup$
Could you edit your question to specify that you are (apparently) more interested in upper natural density rather than just natural density?
$endgroup$
– Erick Wong
13 secs ago
8
8
$begingroup$
Instead of adding a question after receiving an answer to your original question, you should ask that other question separately
$endgroup$
– Hagen von Eitzen
17 hours ago
$begingroup$
Instead of adding a question after receiving an answer to your original question, you should ask that other question separately
$endgroup$
– Hagen von Eitzen
17 hours ago
$begingroup$
Could you edit your question to specify that you are (apparently) more interested in upper natural density rather than just natural density?
$endgroup$
– Erick Wong
13 secs ago
$begingroup$
Could you edit your question to specify that you are (apparently) more interested in upper natural density rather than just natural density?
$endgroup$
– Erick Wong
13 secs ago
add a comment |
5 Answers
5
active
oldest
votes
$begingroup$
New answer:
Kurlberg, Lagarias and Pomerance, On sets of integers which are both sum-free and product-free (arXiv:1201.1317) answers the question. The upper density of any such set is strictly less than 1/2, but can be arbitrarily close to 1/2. I don't see that they state this explicitly in the paper, but it follows pretty quickly from Theorem 1.3.
Explicitly: Theorem 1.3 implies that for any $varepsilon>0$ there is some $n$ and some subset $Ssubsetmathbb{Z}/nmathbb{Z}$ of residue classes that is sum-free and product-free consisting of at least $(frac{1}{2}-varepsilon)n$ classes. Then taking all integers in those residue classes gives a product-free sum-free set of integers of density at least $(frac{1}{2}-varepsilon)$.
Old answer:
Andrew Treglow's talk On sum-free and solution-free sets of integers cites the following result of Deshouillers, Freiman, Sós and Temkin (1999):
If $Ssubseteq[n]$ is sum-free then at least one of the following holds:
- $lvert Srvertle2n/5+1$
$S$ consists of odds
$lvert Srvertlemin(S)$.
Therefore, if the density of a sum-free product-free set $P$ of integers is greater than 2/5, then $Pcap[n]$ must fall in the second case for sufficiently large $n$. (We can't be in the third case because $min(P)<2n/5$ for sufficiently large $n$.)
So, the only way we could hope to do better than 2/5 is to use only odd numbers, and as a corollary the highest density we could hope for is 1/2.
In fact, the proof of Remark 2.7 of Kurlberg, Lagarias and Pomerance, Product-free sets with high density carries over to the case of only odd numbers, showing that we cannot attain a density of 1/2. For completeness, we repeat the argument here with the appropriate modifications: Let $a$ denote the least element of $P$, and let $P(x):=Pcap[1,x]$. Since $P(x)setminus{P(x/a)}$ lies in $(x/a,x]$, $lvert P(x)rvertle lvert P(x/a)rvert+frac{x-lfloor x/arfloor}{2}+1$. Also, multiplying each member of $P(x/a)$ creates products in $[1,x]$ which cannot lie in $P$, so we have $lvert P(x)rvertle frac{x}{2}+1-lvert P(x/a)rvert$. Adding these two inequalities and dividing both sides by 2 gives $lvert P(x)rvertle
frac{x}{2}-frac{lfloor x/arfloor}{2}+2$, which implies that the upper density of $P$ is at most $frac{1}{2}-frac{1}{2a}$.
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
What about $S={3n-1,|,ninmathbb N}$? Its natural density is $frac13$.
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
Very nice! ${}$
$endgroup$
– Joseph O'Rourke
yesterday
add a comment |
$begingroup$
This did not begin as an answer, but see edit below.
See this talk by Carl Pomerance, on sum-free sets, and product-free sets. One way to answer the OP (and this is the approach of the other answers) is to choose an $n$, and a subset $S$ of $mathbb{Z}/nmathbb{Z}$, such that $S$ is both sum-free (if $a,bin S$, then $a+bnotin S$) and product-free (if $a,bin S$, then $abnotin S$) . Then, we take all integers that are congruent to an element of $S$, modulo $n$. The desired asymptotic density is seen to be $frac{|S|}{n}$.
This might not be a simple question at all. Looking just at the sum-free property , we can easily get asymptotic density $0.5$ by taking the odd numbers. The product-free property is quite subtle: the linked talk gives a construction of a very large $n$ (with over 100 million digits) such that there is an $S$ satisfying $frac{|S|}{n}>0.5003$. In fact, we could raise $0.5003$ to be arbitrarily close to $1$ (although no construction is given in the linked talk). The general approach is to make $n$ have many small primes, to large powers, as factors.
One would not expect that this product-free set is also sum-free, but we can always remove some elements from it, until we have a subset of $S$ that is both sum-free and product-free. I have no idea how big that resulting subset would be.
EDIT: Following the methods of the linked talk, choose $n$ (assumed even) and product-free $S$, so that $frac{|S|}{n}ge 1-epsilon$. Hence $|S|ge n(1-epsilon)$. $S$ contains at most $frac{n}{2}$ even numbers (since $Ssubseteq {0,1,ldots, n-1}$, half of which are even). Take $T$ to be the set of all the odd numbers in $S$. We have $|T|ge |S|-frac{n}{2}=n(frac{1}{2}-epsilon)$. Since $Tsubseteq S$, $T$ is product-free. $T$ is also sum-free, since the sum of two elements of $T$ are even (and hence not in $T$). The asymptotic density of all naturals congruent to an element of $T$ modulo $n$ is $frac{|T|}{n}ge frac{1}{2}-epsilon$.
Note that an asymptotic density of $frac{1}{2}$ is best-possible for sum-free sets (as proved in Pomerance's slides), much less sum-free product-free sets. The above construction gives a subset of $mathbb{N}$ arbitrarily close to this bound.
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1
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I am glad to know the terms "sum-free" and "product-free." Much more memorable than "property $Q$"!
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– Joseph O'Rourke
yesterday
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Let $S = {n : n equiv 2 rm{or} 3 pmod 5}$. This has density $2/5$, which beats $1/3$.
Incidentally, this sequence can be generated with a greedy algorithm, starting with $S = {2}$ and progressively adding every larger number that maintains the requirement.
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This feels like it might be the max, because of the greedy property you mentioned.
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– Joseph O'Rourke
yesterday
2
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@JosephO'Rourke Not necessarily: using a greedy algorithm starting at $1$ instead of $2$ leads to a different sequence that is not as dense: ${1, 3, 5, 7, 11, 13, 17, 19, 23, 27, 29, 31, 37, 41, 43, 45, 47, 53, 59, 61, ldots}$. (I'm surprised not to find this on OEIS. You might be interested in adding it there.) Other starting points are similarly bad. But it's interesting that the greedy method starting at $2$ gives a consistent structure, and I agree that it feels like it could be the best result.
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– Théophile
yesterday
6
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@Théophile Doesn't 1*3=3 violate the constraint?
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– alphacapture
yesterday
1
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@Théophile What it looks like you are doing is starting with 3 and running the greedy algorithm while restricting yourself to odd numbers; this will result in the set of odd numbers with an odd number of prime factors
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– alphacapture
yesterday
3
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@alphacapture, indeed, dropping the $1$ and checking OEIS for the rest gives oeis.org/A067019 . (It's generally a good idea to drop a few early terms when checking OEIS, especially $1$'s and $0$'s.)
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– Barry Cipra
yesterday
|
show 1 more comment
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The answer to the title question is no. $Q$ doesn't characterize the odd primes, since, for example, ${2,3,15}vDash Q$. Any subset of the odd primes satisfies $Q$, as does any set formed by taking the odd primes along with an even integer $k$ and deleting one of every pair of primes that differ by $k$. Or forget about the primes altogether and take any (finite or infinite) set ${a_1, a_2, dots}$ such that $2leq a_1 < a_2$ and, for all $i>2$, $a_i > a_{i-1}a_{i-2}$.
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2
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I especially like your last example: $2,3,7,22,155,3411,ldots$.
$endgroup$
– Joseph O'Rourke
yesterday
add a comment |
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5 Answers
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5 Answers
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active
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$begingroup$
New answer:
Kurlberg, Lagarias and Pomerance, On sets of integers which are both sum-free and product-free (arXiv:1201.1317) answers the question. The upper density of any such set is strictly less than 1/2, but can be arbitrarily close to 1/2. I don't see that they state this explicitly in the paper, but it follows pretty quickly from Theorem 1.3.
Explicitly: Theorem 1.3 implies that for any $varepsilon>0$ there is some $n$ and some subset $Ssubsetmathbb{Z}/nmathbb{Z}$ of residue classes that is sum-free and product-free consisting of at least $(frac{1}{2}-varepsilon)n$ classes. Then taking all integers in those residue classes gives a product-free sum-free set of integers of density at least $(frac{1}{2}-varepsilon)$.
Old answer:
Andrew Treglow's talk On sum-free and solution-free sets of integers cites the following result of Deshouillers, Freiman, Sós and Temkin (1999):
If $Ssubseteq[n]$ is sum-free then at least one of the following holds:
- $lvert Srvertle2n/5+1$
$S$ consists of odds
$lvert Srvertlemin(S)$.
Therefore, if the density of a sum-free product-free set $P$ of integers is greater than 2/5, then $Pcap[n]$ must fall in the second case for sufficiently large $n$. (We can't be in the third case because $min(P)<2n/5$ for sufficiently large $n$.)
So, the only way we could hope to do better than 2/5 is to use only odd numbers, and as a corollary the highest density we could hope for is 1/2.
In fact, the proof of Remark 2.7 of Kurlberg, Lagarias and Pomerance, Product-free sets with high density carries over to the case of only odd numbers, showing that we cannot attain a density of 1/2. For completeness, we repeat the argument here with the appropriate modifications: Let $a$ denote the least element of $P$, and let $P(x):=Pcap[1,x]$. Since $P(x)setminus{P(x/a)}$ lies in $(x/a,x]$, $lvert P(x)rvertle lvert P(x/a)rvert+frac{x-lfloor x/arfloor}{2}+1$. Also, multiplying each member of $P(x/a)$ creates products in $[1,x]$ which cannot lie in $P$, so we have $lvert P(x)rvertle frac{x}{2}+1-lvert P(x/a)rvert$. Adding these two inequalities and dividing both sides by 2 gives $lvert P(x)rvertle
frac{x}{2}-frac{lfloor x/arfloor}{2}+2$, which implies that the upper density of $P$ is at most $frac{1}{2}-frac{1}{2a}$.
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
New answer:
Kurlberg, Lagarias and Pomerance, On sets of integers which are both sum-free and product-free (arXiv:1201.1317) answers the question. The upper density of any such set is strictly less than 1/2, but can be arbitrarily close to 1/2. I don't see that they state this explicitly in the paper, but it follows pretty quickly from Theorem 1.3.
Explicitly: Theorem 1.3 implies that for any $varepsilon>0$ there is some $n$ and some subset $Ssubsetmathbb{Z}/nmathbb{Z}$ of residue classes that is sum-free and product-free consisting of at least $(frac{1}{2}-varepsilon)n$ classes. Then taking all integers in those residue classes gives a product-free sum-free set of integers of density at least $(frac{1}{2}-varepsilon)$.
Old answer:
Andrew Treglow's talk On sum-free and solution-free sets of integers cites the following result of Deshouillers, Freiman, Sós and Temkin (1999):
If $Ssubseteq[n]$ is sum-free then at least one of the following holds:
- $lvert Srvertle2n/5+1$
$S$ consists of odds
$lvert Srvertlemin(S)$.
Therefore, if the density of a sum-free product-free set $P$ of integers is greater than 2/5, then $Pcap[n]$ must fall in the second case for sufficiently large $n$. (We can't be in the third case because $min(P)<2n/5$ for sufficiently large $n$.)
So, the only way we could hope to do better than 2/5 is to use only odd numbers, and as a corollary the highest density we could hope for is 1/2.
In fact, the proof of Remark 2.7 of Kurlberg, Lagarias and Pomerance, Product-free sets with high density carries over to the case of only odd numbers, showing that we cannot attain a density of 1/2. For completeness, we repeat the argument here with the appropriate modifications: Let $a$ denote the least element of $P$, and let $P(x):=Pcap[1,x]$. Since $P(x)setminus{P(x/a)}$ lies in $(x/a,x]$, $lvert P(x)rvertle lvert P(x/a)rvert+frac{x-lfloor x/arfloor}{2}+1$. Also, multiplying each member of $P(x/a)$ creates products in $[1,x]$ which cannot lie in $P$, so we have $lvert P(x)rvertle frac{x}{2}+1-lvert P(x/a)rvert$. Adding these two inequalities and dividing both sides by 2 gives $lvert P(x)rvertle
frac{x}{2}-frac{lfloor x/arfloor}{2}+2$, which implies that the upper density of $P$ is at most $frac{1}{2}-frac{1}{2a}$.
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
New answer:
Kurlberg, Lagarias and Pomerance, On sets of integers which are both sum-free and product-free (arXiv:1201.1317) answers the question. The upper density of any such set is strictly less than 1/2, but can be arbitrarily close to 1/2. I don't see that they state this explicitly in the paper, but it follows pretty quickly from Theorem 1.3.
Explicitly: Theorem 1.3 implies that for any $varepsilon>0$ there is some $n$ and some subset $Ssubsetmathbb{Z}/nmathbb{Z}$ of residue classes that is sum-free and product-free consisting of at least $(frac{1}{2}-varepsilon)n$ classes. Then taking all integers in those residue classes gives a product-free sum-free set of integers of density at least $(frac{1}{2}-varepsilon)$.
Old answer:
Andrew Treglow's talk On sum-free and solution-free sets of integers cites the following result of Deshouillers, Freiman, Sós and Temkin (1999):
If $Ssubseteq[n]$ is sum-free then at least one of the following holds:
- $lvert Srvertle2n/5+1$
$S$ consists of odds
$lvert Srvertlemin(S)$.
Therefore, if the density of a sum-free product-free set $P$ of integers is greater than 2/5, then $Pcap[n]$ must fall in the second case for sufficiently large $n$. (We can't be in the third case because $min(P)<2n/5$ for sufficiently large $n$.)
So, the only way we could hope to do better than 2/5 is to use only odd numbers, and as a corollary the highest density we could hope for is 1/2.
In fact, the proof of Remark 2.7 of Kurlberg, Lagarias and Pomerance, Product-free sets with high density carries over to the case of only odd numbers, showing that we cannot attain a density of 1/2. For completeness, we repeat the argument here with the appropriate modifications: Let $a$ denote the least element of $P$, and let $P(x):=Pcap[1,x]$. Since $P(x)setminus{P(x/a)}$ lies in $(x/a,x]$, $lvert P(x)rvertle lvert P(x/a)rvert+frac{x-lfloor x/arfloor}{2}+1$. Also, multiplying each member of $P(x/a)$ creates products in $[1,x]$ which cannot lie in $P$, so we have $lvert P(x)rvertle frac{x}{2}+1-lvert P(x/a)rvert$. Adding these two inequalities and dividing both sides by 2 gives $lvert P(x)rvertle
frac{x}{2}-frac{lfloor x/arfloor}{2}+2$, which implies that the upper density of $P$ is at most $frac{1}{2}-frac{1}{2a}$.
$endgroup$
New answer:
Kurlberg, Lagarias and Pomerance, On sets of integers which are both sum-free and product-free (arXiv:1201.1317) answers the question. The upper density of any such set is strictly less than 1/2, but can be arbitrarily close to 1/2. I don't see that they state this explicitly in the paper, but it follows pretty quickly from Theorem 1.3.
Explicitly: Theorem 1.3 implies that for any $varepsilon>0$ there is some $n$ and some subset $Ssubsetmathbb{Z}/nmathbb{Z}$ of residue classes that is sum-free and product-free consisting of at least $(frac{1}{2}-varepsilon)n$ classes. Then taking all integers in those residue classes gives a product-free sum-free set of integers of density at least $(frac{1}{2}-varepsilon)$.
Old answer:
Andrew Treglow's talk On sum-free and solution-free sets of integers cites the following result of Deshouillers, Freiman, Sós and Temkin (1999):
If $Ssubseteq[n]$ is sum-free then at least one of the following holds:
- $lvert Srvertle2n/5+1$
$S$ consists of odds
$lvert Srvertlemin(S)$.
Therefore, if the density of a sum-free product-free set $P$ of integers is greater than 2/5, then $Pcap[n]$ must fall in the second case for sufficiently large $n$. (We can't be in the third case because $min(P)<2n/5$ for sufficiently large $n$.)
So, the only way we could hope to do better than 2/5 is to use only odd numbers, and as a corollary the highest density we could hope for is 1/2.
In fact, the proof of Remark 2.7 of Kurlberg, Lagarias and Pomerance, Product-free sets with high density carries over to the case of only odd numbers, showing that we cannot attain a density of 1/2. For completeness, we repeat the argument here with the appropriate modifications: Let $a$ denote the least element of $P$, and let $P(x):=Pcap[1,x]$. Since $P(x)setminus{P(x/a)}$ lies in $(x/a,x]$, $lvert P(x)rvertle lvert P(x/a)rvert+frac{x-lfloor x/arfloor}{2}+1$. Also, multiplying each member of $P(x/a)$ creates products in $[1,x]$ which cannot lie in $P$, so we have $lvert P(x)rvertle frac{x}{2}+1-lvert P(x/a)rvert$. Adding these two inequalities and dividing both sides by 2 gives $lvert P(x)rvertle
frac{x}{2}-frac{lfloor x/arfloor}{2}+2$, which implies that the upper density of $P$ is at most $frac{1}{2}-frac{1}{2a}$.
edited 10 hours ago
David Richerby
2,18011324
2,18011324
answered yesterday
alphacapturealphacapture
2,165425
2,165425
add a comment |
add a comment |
$begingroup$
What about $S={3n-1,|,ninmathbb N}$? Its natural density is $frac13$.
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
Very nice! ${}$
$endgroup$
– Joseph O'Rourke
yesterday
add a comment |
$begingroup$
What about $S={3n-1,|,ninmathbb N}$? Its natural density is $frac13$.
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
Very nice! ${}$
$endgroup$
– Joseph O'Rourke
yesterday
add a comment |
$begingroup$
What about $S={3n-1,|,ninmathbb N}$? Its natural density is $frac13$.
$endgroup$
What about $S={3n-1,|,ninmathbb N}$? Its natural density is $frac13$.
answered yesterday
José Carlos SantosJosé Carlos Santos
163k22131234
163k22131234
$begingroup$
Very nice! ${}$
$endgroup$
– Joseph O'Rourke
yesterday
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Very nice! ${}$
$endgroup$
– Joseph O'Rourke
yesterday
$begingroup$
Very nice! ${}$
$endgroup$
– Joseph O'Rourke
yesterday
$begingroup$
Very nice! ${}$
$endgroup$
– Joseph O'Rourke
yesterday
add a comment |
$begingroup$
This did not begin as an answer, but see edit below.
See this talk by Carl Pomerance, on sum-free sets, and product-free sets. One way to answer the OP (and this is the approach of the other answers) is to choose an $n$, and a subset $S$ of $mathbb{Z}/nmathbb{Z}$, such that $S$ is both sum-free (if $a,bin S$, then $a+bnotin S$) and product-free (if $a,bin S$, then $abnotin S$) . Then, we take all integers that are congruent to an element of $S$, modulo $n$. The desired asymptotic density is seen to be $frac{|S|}{n}$.
This might not be a simple question at all. Looking just at the sum-free property , we can easily get asymptotic density $0.5$ by taking the odd numbers. The product-free property is quite subtle: the linked talk gives a construction of a very large $n$ (with over 100 million digits) such that there is an $S$ satisfying $frac{|S|}{n}>0.5003$. In fact, we could raise $0.5003$ to be arbitrarily close to $1$ (although no construction is given in the linked talk). The general approach is to make $n$ have many small primes, to large powers, as factors.
One would not expect that this product-free set is also sum-free, but we can always remove some elements from it, until we have a subset of $S$ that is both sum-free and product-free. I have no idea how big that resulting subset would be.
EDIT: Following the methods of the linked talk, choose $n$ (assumed even) and product-free $S$, so that $frac{|S|}{n}ge 1-epsilon$. Hence $|S|ge n(1-epsilon)$. $S$ contains at most $frac{n}{2}$ even numbers (since $Ssubseteq {0,1,ldots, n-1}$, half of which are even). Take $T$ to be the set of all the odd numbers in $S$. We have $|T|ge |S|-frac{n}{2}=n(frac{1}{2}-epsilon)$. Since $Tsubseteq S$, $T$ is product-free. $T$ is also sum-free, since the sum of two elements of $T$ are even (and hence not in $T$). The asymptotic density of all naturals congruent to an element of $T$ modulo $n$ is $frac{|T|}{n}ge frac{1}{2}-epsilon$.
Note that an asymptotic density of $frac{1}{2}$ is best-possible for sum-free sets (as proved in Pomerance's slides), much less sum-free product-free sets. The above construction gives a subset of $mathbb{N}$ arbitrarily close to this bound.
$endgroup$
1
$begingroup$
I am glad to know the terms "sum-free" and "product-free." Much more memorable than "property $Q$"!
$endgroup$
– Joseph O'Rourke
yesterday
add a comment |
$begingroup$
This did not begin as an answer, but see edit below.
See this talk by Carl Pomerance, on sum-free sets, and product-free sets. One way to answer the OP (and this is the approach of the other answers) is to choose an $n$, and a subset $S$ of $mathbb{Z}/nmathbb{Z}$, such that $S$ is both sum-free (if $a,bin S$, then $a+bnotin S$) and product-free (if $a,bin S$, then $abnotin S$) . Then, we take all integers that are congruent to an element of $S$, modulo $n$. The desired asymptotic density is seen to be $frac{|S|}{n}$.
This might not be a simple question at all. Looking just at the sum-free property , we can easily get asymptotic density $0.5$ by taking the odd numbers. The product-free property is quite subtle: the linked talk gives a construction of a very large $n$ (with over 100 million digits) such that there is an $S$ satisfying $frac{|S|}{n}>0.5003$. In fact, we could raise $0.5003$ to be arbitrarily close to $1$ (although no construction is given in the linked talk). The general approach is to make $n$ have many small primes, to large powers, as factors.
One would not expect that this product-free set is also sum-free, but we can always remove some elements from it, until we have a subset of $S$ that is both sum-free and product-free. I have no idea how big that resulting subset would be.
EDIT: Following the methods of the linked talk, choose $n$ (assumed even) and product-free $S$, so that $frac{|S|}{n}ge 1-epsilon$. Hence $|S|ge n(1-epsilon)$. $S$ contains at most $frac{n}{2}$ even numbers (since $Ssubseteq {0,1,ldots, n-1}$, half of which are even). Take $T$ to be the set of all the odd numbers in $S$. We have $|T|ge |S|-frac{n}{2}=n(frac{1}{2}-epsilon)$. Since $Tsubseteq S$, $T$ is product-free. $T$ is also sum-free, since the sum of two elements of $T$ are even (and hence not in $T$). The asymptotic density of all naturals congruent to an element of $T$ modulo $n$ is $frac{|T|}{n}ge frac{1}{2}-epsilon$.
Note that an asymptotic density of $frac{1}{2}$ is best-possible for sum-free sets (as proved in Pomerance's slides), much less sum-free product-free sets. The above construction gives a subset of $mathbb{N}$ arbitrarily close to this bound.
$endgroup$
1
$begingroup$
I am glad to know the terms "sum-free" and "product-free." Much more memorable than "property $Q$"!
$endgroup$
– Joseph O'Rourke
yesterday
add a comment |
$begingroup$
This did not begin as an answer, but see edit below.
See this talk by Carl Pomerance, on sum-free sets, and product-free sets. One way to answer the OP (and this is the approach of the other answers) is to choose an $n$, and a subset $S$ of $mathbb{Z}/nmathbb{Z}$, such that $S$ is both sum-free (if $a,bin S$, then $a+bnotin S$) and product-free (if $a,bin S$, then $abnotin S$) . Then, we take all integers that are congruent to an element of $S$, modulo $n$. The desired asymptotic density is seen to be $frac{|S|}{n}$.
This might not be a simple question at all. Looking just at the sum-free property , we can easily get asymptotic density $0.5$ by taking the odd numbers. The product-free property is quite subtle: the linked talk gives a construction of a very large $n$ (with over 100 million digits) such that there is an $S$ satisfying $frac{|S|}{n}>0.5003$. In fact, we could raise $0.5003$ to be arbitrarily close to $1$ (although no construction is given in the linked talk). The general approach is to make $n$ have many small primes, to large powers, as factors.
One would not expect that this product-free set is also sum-free, but we can always remove some elements from it, until we have a subset of $S$ that is both sum-free and product-free. I have no idea how big that resulting subset would be.
EDIT: Following the methods of the linked talk, choose $n$ (assumed even) and product-free $S$, so that $frac{|S|}{n}ge 1-epsilon$. Hence $|S|ge n(1-epsilon)$. $S$ contains at most $frac{n}{2}$ even numbers (since $Ssubseteq {0,1,ldots, n-1}$, half of which are even). Take $T$ to be the set of all the odd numbers in $S$. We have $|T|ge |S|-frac{n}{2}=n(frac{1}{2}-epsilon)$. Since $Tsubseteq S$, $T$ is product-free. $T$ is also sum-free, since the sum of two elements of $T$ are even (and hence not in $T$). The asymptotic density of all naturals congruent to an element of $T$ modulo $n$ is $frac{|T|}{n}ge frac{1}{2}-epsilon$.
Note that an asymptotic density of $frac{1}{2}$ is best-possible for sum-free sets (as proved in Pomerance's slides), much less sum-free product-free sets. The above construction gives a subset of $mathbb{N}$ arbitrarily close to this bound.
$endgroup$
This did not begin as an answer, but see edit below.
See this talk by Carl Pomerance, on sum-free sets, and product-free sets. One way to answer the OP (and this is the approach of the other answers) is to choose an $n$, and a subset $S$ of $mathbb{Z}/nmathbb{Z}$, such that $S$ is both sum-free (if $a,bin S$, then $a+bnotin S$) and product-free (if $a,bin S$, then $abnotin S$) . Then, we take all integers that are congruent to an element of $S$, modulo $n$. The desired asymptotic density is seen to be $frac{|S|}{n}$.
This might not be a simple question at all. Looking just at the sum-free property , we can easily get asymptotic density $0.5$ by taking the odd numbers. The product-free property is quite subtle: the linked talk gives a construction of a very large $n$ (with over 100 million digits) such that there is an $S$ satisfying $frac{|S|}{n}>0.5003$. In fact, we could raise $0.5003$ to be arbitrarily close to $1$ (although no construction is given in the linked talk). The general approach is to make $n$ have many small primes, to large powers, as factors.
One would not expect that this product-free set is also sum-free, but we can always remove some elements from it, until we have a subset of $S$ that is both sum-free and product-free. I have no idea how big that resulting subset would be.
EDIT: Following the methods of the linked talk, choose $n$ (assumed even) and product-free $S$, so that $frac{|S|}{n}ge 1-epsilon$. Hence $|S|ge n(1-epsilon)$. $S$ contains at most $frac{n}{2}$ even numbers (since $Ssubseteq {0,1,ldots, n-1}$, half of which are even). Take $T$ to be the set of all the odd numbers in $S$. We have $|T|ge |S|-frac{n}{2}=n(frac{1}{2}-epsilon)$. Since $Tsubseteq S$, $T$ is product-free. $T$ is also sum-free, since the sum of two elements of $T$ are even (and hence not in $T$). The asymptotic density of all naturals congruent to an element of $T$ modulo $n$ is $frac{|T|}{n}ge frac{1}{2}-epsilon$.
Note that an asymptotic density of $frac{1}{2}$ is best-possible for sum-free sets (as proved in Pomerance's slides), much less sum-free product-free sets. The above construction gives a subset of $mathbb{N}$ arbitrarily close to this bound.
edited yesterday
answered yesterday
vadim123vadim123
76.2k897191
76.2k897191
1
$begingroup$
I am glad to know the terms "sum-free" and "product-free." Much more memorable than "property $Q$"!
$endgroup$
– Joseph O'Rourke
yesterday
add a comment |
1
$begingroup$
I am glad to know the terms "sum-free" and "product-free." Much more memorable than "property $Q$"!
$endgroup$
– Joseph O'Rourke
yesterday
1
1
$begingroup$
I am glad to know the terms "sum-free" and "product-free." Much more memorable than "property $Q$"!
$endgroup$
– Joseph O'Rourke
yesterday
$begingroup$
I am glad to know the terms "sum-free" and "product-free." Much more memorable than "property $Q$"!
$endgroup$
– Joseph O'Rourke
yesterday
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Let $S = {n : n equiv 2 rm{or} 3 pmod 5}$. This has density $2/5$, which beats $1/3$.
Incidentally, this sequence can be generated with a greedy algorithm, starting with $S = {2}$ and progressively adding every larger number that maintains the requirement.
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
This feels like it might be the max, because of the greedy property you mentioned.
$endgroup$
– Joseph O'Rourke
yesterday
2
$begingroup$
@JosephO'Rourke Not necessarily: using a greedy algorithm starting at $1$ instead of $2$ leads to a different sequence that is not as dense: ${1, 3, 5, 7, 11, 13, 17, 19, 23, 27, 29, 31, 37, 41, 43, 45, 47, 53, 59, 61, ldots}$. (I'm surprised not to find this on OEIS. You might be interested in adding it there.) Other starting points are similarly bad. But it's interesting that the greedy method starting at $2$ gives a consistent structure, and I agree that it feels like it could be the best result.
$endgroup$
– Théophile
yesterday
6
$begingroup$
@Théophile Doesn't 1*3=3 violate the constraint?
$endgroup$
– alphacapture
yesterday
1
$begingroup$
@Théophile What it looks like you are doing is starting with 3 and running the greedy algorithm while restricting yourself to odd numbers; this will result in the set of odd numbers with an odd number of prime factors
$endgroup$
– alphacapture
yesterday
3
$begingroup$
@alphacapture, indeed, dropping the $1$ and checking OEIS for the rest gives oeis.org/A067019 . (It's generally a good idea to drop a few early terms when checking OEIS, especially $1$'s and $0$'s.)
$endgroup$
– Barry Cipra
yesterday
|
show 1 more comment
$begingroup$
Let $S = {n : n equiv 2 rm{or} 3 pmod 5}$. This has density $2/5$, which beats $1/3$.
Incidentally, this sequence can be generated with a greedy algorithm, starting with $S = {2}$ and progressively adding every larger number that maintains the requirement.
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
This feels like it might be the max, because of the greedy property you mentioned.
$endgroup$
– Joseph O'Rourke
yesterday
2
$begingroup$
@JosephO'Rourke Not necessarily: using a greedy algorithm starting at $1$ instead of $2$ leads to a different sequence that is not as dense: ${1, 3, 5, 7, 11, 13, 17, 19, 23, 27, 29, 31, 37, 41, 43, 45, 47, 53, 59, 61, ldots}$. (I'm surprised not to find this on OEIS. You might be interested in adding it there.) Other starting points are similarly bad. But it's interesting that the greedy method starting at $2$ gives a consistent structure, and I agree that it feels like it could be the best result.
$endgroup$
– Théophile
yesterday
6
$begingroup$
@Théophile Doesn't 1*3=3 violate the constraint?
$endgroup$
– alphacapture
yesterday
1
$begingroup$
@Théophile What it looks like you are doing is starting with 3 and running the greedy algorithm while restricting yourself to odd numbers; this will result in the set of odd numbers with an odd number of prime factors
$endgroup$
– alphacapture
yesterday
3
$begingroup$
@alphacapture, indeed, dropping the $1$ and checking OEIS for the rest gives oeis.org/A067019 . (It's generally a good idea to drop a few early terms when checking OEIS, especially $1$'s and $0$'s.)
$endgroup$
– Barry Cipra
yesterday
|
show 1 more comment
$begingroup$
Let $S = {n : n equiv 2 rm{or} 3 pmod 5}$. This has density $2/5$, which beats $1/3$.
Incidentally, this sequence can be generated with a greedy algorithm, starting with $S = {2}$ and progressively adding every larger number that maintains the requirement.
$endgroup$
Let $S = {n : n equiv 2 rm{or} 3 pmod 5}$. This has density $2/5$, which beats $1/3$.
Incidentally, this sequence can be generated with a greedy algorithm, starting with $S = {2}$ and progressively adding every larger number that maintains the requirement.
answered yesterday
ThéophileThéophile
19.9k12946
19.9k12946
$begingroup$
This feels like it might be the max, because of the greedy property you mentioned.
$endgroup$
– Joseph O'Rourke
yesterday
2
$begingroup$
@JosephO'Rourke Not necessarily: using a greedy algorithm starting at $1$ instead of $2$ leads to a different sequence that is not as dense: ${1, 3, 5, 7, 11, 13, 17, 19, 23, 27, 29, 31, 37, 41, 43, 45, 47, 53, 59, 61, ldots}$. (I'm surprised not to find this on OEIS. You might be interested in adding it there.) Other starting points are similarly bad. But it's interesting that the greedy method starting at $2$ gives a consistent structure, and I agree that it feels like it could be the best result.
$endgroup$
– Théophile
yesterday
6
$begingroup$
@Théophile Doesn't 1*3=3 violate the constraint?
$endgroup$
– alphacapture
yesterday
1
$begingroup$
@Théophile What it looks like you are doing is starting with 3 and running the greedy algorithm while restricting yourself to odd numbers; this will result in the set of odd numbers with an odd number of prime factors
$endgroup$
– alphacapture
yesterday
3
$begingroup$
@alphacapture, indeed, dropping the $1$ and checking OEIS for the rest gives oeis.org/A067019 . (It's generally a good idea to drop a few early terms when checking OEIS, especially $1$'s and $0$'s.)
$endgroup$
– Barry Cipra
yesterday
|
show 1 more comment
$begingroup$
This feels like it might be the max, because of the greedy property you mentioned.
$endgroup$
– Joseph O'Rourke
yesterday
2
$begingroup$
@JosephO'Rourke Not necessarily: using a greedy algorithm starting at $1$ instead of $2$ leads to a different sequence that is not as dense: ${1, 3, 5, 7, 11, 13, 17, 19, 23, 27, 29, 31, 37, 41, 43, 45, 47, 53, 59, 61, ldots}$. (I'm surprised not to find this on OEIS. You might be interested in adding it there.) Other starting points are similarly bad. But it's interesting that the greedy method starting at $2$ gives a consistent structure, and I agree that it feels like it could be the best result.
$endgroup$
– Théophile
yesterday
6
$begingroup$
@Théophile Doesn't 1*3=3 violate the constraint?
$endgroup$
– alphacapture
yesterday
1
$begingroup$
@Théophile What it looks like you are doing is starting with 3 and running the greedy algorithm while restricting yourself to odd numbers; this will result in the set of odd numbers with an odd number of prime factors
$endgroup$
– alphacapture
yesterday
3
$begingroup$
@alphacapture, indeed, dropping the $1$ and checking OEIS for the rest gives oeis.org/A067019 . (It's generally a good idea to drop a few early terms when checking OEIS, especially $1$'s and $0$'s.)
$endgroup$
– Barry Cipra
yesterday
$begingroup$
This feels like it might be the max, because of the greedy property you mentioned.
$endgroup$
– Joseph O'Rourke
yesterday
$begingroup$
This feels like it might be the max, because of the greedy property you mentioned.
$endgroup$
– Joseph O'Rourke
yesterday
2
2
$begingroup$
@JosephO'Rourke Not necessarily: using a greedy algorithm starting at $1$ instead of $2$ leads to a different sequence that is not as dense: ${1, 3, 5, 7, 11, 13, 17, 19, 23, 27, 29, 31, 37, 41, 43, 45, 47, 53, 59, 61, ldots}$. (I'm surprised not to find this on OEIS. You might be interested in adding it there.) Other starting points are similarly bad. But it's interesting that the greedy method starting at $2$ gives a consistent structure, and I agree that it feels like it could be the best result.
$endgroup$
– Théophile
yesterday
$begingroup$
@JosephO'Rourke Not necessarily: using a greedy algorithm starting at $1$ instead of $2$ leads to a different sequence that is not as dense: ${1, 3, 5, 7, 11, 13, 17, 19, 23, 27, 29, 31, 37, 41, 43, 45, 47, 53, 59, 61, ldots}$. (I'm surprised not to find this on OEIS. You might be interested in adding it there.) Other starting points are similarly bad. But it's interesting that the greedy method starting at $2$ gives a consistent structure, and I agree that it feels like it could be the best result.
$endgroup$
– Théophile
yesterday
6
6
$begingroup$
@Théophile Doesn't 1*3=3 violate the constraint?
$endgroup$
– alphacapture
yesterday
$begingroup$
@Théophile Doesn't 1*3=3 violate the constraint?
$endgroup$
– alphacapture
yesterday
1
1
$begingroup$
@Théophile What it looks like you are doing is starting with 3 and running the greedy algorithm while restricting yourself to odd numbers; this will result in the set of odd numbers with an odd number of prime factors
$endgroup$
– alphacapture
yesterday
$begingroup$
@Théophile What it looks like you are doing is starting with 3 and running the greedy algorithm while restricting yourself to odd numbers; this will result in the set of odd numbers with an odd number of prime factors
$endgroup$
– alphacapture
yesterday
3
3
$begingroup$
@alphacapture, indeed, dropping the $1$ and checking OEIS for the rest gives oeis.org/A067019 . (It's generally a good idea to drop a few early terms when checking OEIS, especially $1$'s and $0$'s.)
$endgroup$
– Barry Cipra
yesterday
$begingroup$
@alphacapture, indeed, dropping the $1$ and checking OEIS for the rest gives oeis.org/A067019 . (It's generally a good idea to drop a few early terms when checking OEIS, especially $1$'s and $0$'s.)
$endgroup$
– Barry Cipra
yesterday
|
show 1 more comment
$begingroup$
The answer to the title question is no. $Q$ doesn't characterize the odd primes, since, for example, ${2,3,15}vDash Q$. Any subset of the odd primes satisfies $Q$, as does any set formed by taking the odd primes along with an even integer $k$ and deleting one of every pair of primes that differ by $k$. Or forget about the primes altogether and take any (finite or infinite) set ${a_1, a_2, dots}$ such that $2leq a_1 < a_2$ and, for all $i>2$, $a_i > a_{i-1}a_{i-2}$.
$endgroup$
2
$begingroup$
I especially like your last example: $2,3,7,22,155,3411,ldots$.
$endgroup$
– Joseph O'Rourke
yesterday
add a comment |
$begingroup$
The answer to the title question is no. $Q$ doesn't characterize the odd primes, since, for example, ${2,3,15}vDash Q$. Any subset of the odd primes satisfies $Q$, as does any set formed by taking the odd primes along with an even integer $k$ and deleting one of every pair of primes that differ by $k$. Or forget about the primes altogether and take any (finite or infinite) set ${a_1, a_2, dots}$ such that $2leq a_1 < a_2$ and, for all $i>2$, $a_i > a_{i-1}a_{i-2}$.
$endgroup$
2
$begingroup$
I especially like your last example: $2,3,7,22,155,3411,ldots$.
$endgroup$
– Joseph O'Rourke
yesterday
add a comment |
$begingroup$
The answer to the title question is no. $Q$ doesn't characterize the odd primes, since, for example, ${2,3,15}vDash Q$. Any subset of the odd primes satisfies $Q$, as does any set formed by taking the odd primes along with an even integer $k$ and deleting one of every pair of primes that differ by $k$. Or forget about the primes altogether and take any (finite or infinite) set ${a_1, a_2, dots}$ such that $2leq a_1 < a_2$ and, for all $i>2$, $a_i > a_{i-1}a_{i-2}$.
$endgroup$
The answer to the title question is no. $Q$ doesn't characterize the odd primes, since, for example, ${2,3,15}vDash Q$. Any subset of the odd primes satisfies $Q$, as does any set formed by taking the odd primes along with an even integer $k$ and deleting one of every pair of primes that differ by $k$. Or forget about the primes altogether and take any (finite or infinite) set ${a_1, a_2, dots}$ such that $2leq a_1 < a_2$ and, for all $i>2$, $a_i > a_{i-1}a_{i-2}$.
answered yesterday
David RicherbyDavid Richerby
2,18011324
2,18011324
2
$begingroup$
I especially like your last example: $2,3,7,22,155,3411,ldots$.
$endgroup$
– Joseph O'Rourke
yesterday
add a comment |
2
$begingroup$
I especially like your last example: $2,3,7,22,155,3411,ldots$.
$endgroup$
– Joseph O'Rourke
yesterday
2
2
$begingroup$
I especially like your last example: $2,3,7,22,155,3411,ldots$.
$endgroup$
– Joseph O'Rourke
yesterday
$begingroup$
I especially like your last example: $2,3,7,22,155,3411,ldots$.
$endgroup$
– Joseph O'Rourke
yesterday
add a comment |
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$begingroup$
Instead of adding a question after receiving an answer to your original question, you should ask that other question separately
$endgroup$
– Hagen von Eitzen
17 hours ago
$begingroup$
Could you edit your question to specify that you are (apparently) more interested in upper natural density rather than just natural density?
$endgroup$
– Erick Wong
13 secs ago