What force causes entropy to increase?
$begingroup$
What force causes entropy to increase?
I realize that the second law of thermodynamics requires the entropy of a system to increase over time. For example, gas stored in a canister, if opened inside a vacuum chamber, will expand to fill the chamber.
But I’m not clear on what force, exactly, is acting upon the molecules of gas that causes them to fly out of the opened canister and fill the chamber.
Just looking for a concise explanation as to what is going on at the fundamental level, since obviously, the second law of thermodynamics is not a force and therefore does not cause anything to happen.
thermodynamics laws-of-physics
asked 5 hours ago
CommaToastCommaToast
25029
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
What force causes entropy to increase?
I realize that the second law of thermodynamics requires the entropy of a system to increase over time. For example, gas stored in a canister, if opened inside a vacuum chamber, will expand to fill the chamber.
But I’m not clear on what force, exactly, is acting upon the molecules of gas that causes them to fly out of the opened canister and fill the chamber.
Just looking for a concise explanation as to what is going on at the fundamental level, since obviously, the second law of thermodynamics is not a force and therefore does not cause anything to happen.
thermodynamics laws-of-physics
asked 5 hours ago
CommaToastCommaToast
25029
$endgroup$
3
$begingroup$
If you know it isn't a force then why are you asking what the force is?
$endgroup$
– Aaron Stevens
5 hours ago
1
$begingroup$
Entropy doesn’t have inertia, as far as I know.
$endgroup$
– Dale
2 hours ago
$begingroup$
Your concept of how gasses work is backwards, and that is impeding your ability to reason correctly about entropy. The question is not "what force causes the gas to escape the container?" The question you should be considering is "what force keeps the gas inside the container?" Gas doesn't require a force to expand into a vacuum; it requires a force to not expand into a vacuum! The force is provided by the walls of the container.
$endgroup$
– Eric Lippert
15 mins ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
What force causes entropy to increase?
I realize that the second law of thermodynamics requires the entropy of a system to increase over time. For example, gas stored in a canister, if opened inside a vacuum chamber, will expand to fill the chamber.
But I’m not clear on what force, exactly, is acting upon the molecules of gas that causes them to fly out of the opened canister and fill the chamber.
Just looking for a concise explanation as to what is going on at the fundamental level, since obviously, the second law of thermodynamics is not a force and therefore does not cause anything to happen.
thermodynamics laws-of-physics
asked 5 hours ago
CommaToastCommaToast
25029
$endgroup$
What force causes entropy to increase?
I realize that the second law of thermodynamics requires the entropy of a system to increase over time. For example, gas stored in a canister, if opened inside a vacuum chamber, will expand to fill the chamber.
But I’m not clear on what force, exactly, is acting upon the molecules of gas that causes them to fly out of the opened canister and fill the chamber.
Just looking for a concise explanation as to what is going on at the fundamental level, since obviously, the second law of thermodynamics is not a force and therefore does not cause anything to happen.
thermodynamics laws-of-physics
thermodynamics laws-of-physics
asked 5 hours ago
CommaToastCommaToast
25029
asked 5 hours ago
CommaToastCommaToast
25029
asked 5 hours ago
CommaToastCommaToast
25029
asked 5 hours ago
CommaToastCommaToast
25029
asked 5 hours ago
CommaToastCommaToast
25029
25029
3
$begingroup$
If you know it isn't a force then why are you asking what the force is?
$endgroup$
– Aaron Stevens
5 hours ago
1
$begingroup$
Entropy doesn’t have inertia, as far as I know.
$endgroup$
– Dale
2 hours ago
$begingroup$
Your concept of how gasses work is backwards, and that is impeding your ability to reason correctly about entropy. The question is not "what force causes the gas to escape the container?" The question you should be considering is "what force keeps the gas inside the container?" Gas doesn't require a force to expand into a vacuum; it requires a force to not expand into a vacuum! The force is provided by the walls of the container.
$endgroup$
– Eric Lippert
15 mins ago
add a comment |
3
$begingroup$
If you know it isn't a force then why are you asking what the force is?
$endgroup$
– Aaron Stevens
5 hours ago
1
$begingroup$
Entropy doesn’t have inertia, as far as I know.
$endgroup$
– Dale
2 hours ago
$begingroup$
Your concept of how gasses work is backwards, and that is impeding your ability to reason correctly about entropy. The question is not "what force causes the gas to escape the container?" The question you should be considering is "what force keeps the gas inside the container?" Gas doesn't require a force to expand into a vacuum; it requires a force to not expand into a vacuum! The force is provided by the walls of the container.
$endgroup$
– Eric Lippert
15 mins ago
3
3
$begingroup$
If you know it isn't a force then why are you asking what the force is?
$endgroup$
– Aaron Stevens
5 hours ago
$begingroup$
If you know it isn't a force then why are you asking what the force is?
$endgroup$
– Aaron Stevens
5 hours ago
1
1
$begingroup$
Entropy doesn’t have inertia, as far as I know.
$endgroup$
– Dale
2 hours ago
$begingroup$
Entropy doesn’t have inertia, as far as I know.
$endgroup$
– Dale
2 hours ago
$begingroup$
Your concept of how gasses work is backwards, and that is impeding your ability to reason correctly about entropy. The question is not "what force causes the gas to escape the container?" The question you should be considering is "what force keeps the gas inside the container?" Gas doesn't require a force to expand into a vacuum; it requires a force to not expand into a vacuum! The force is provided by the walls of the container.
$endgroup$
– Eric Lippert
15 mins ago
$begingroup$
Your concept of how gasses work is backwards, and that is impeding your ability to reason correctly about entropy. The question is not "what force causes the gas to escape the container?" The question you should be considering is "what force keeps the gas inside the container?" Gas doesn't require a force to expand into a vacuum; it requires a force to not expand into a vacuum! The force is provided by the walls of the container.
$endgroup$
– Eric Lippert
15 mins ago
add a comment |
2 Answers
2
active
oldest
votes
$begingroup$
This might not be as detailed as you want, but really all the second law says is that the most likely thing will happen. The reason we can associate certainty with something that seems random is because when we are looking at systems with such a large number of particles, states, etc. anything that is not the most likely is essentially so unlikely that we would have to wait for times longer than he age of the universe to observe them to happen by chance.
Therefore, as you say in your last paragraph, there is no force associated with entropy increase. It's just a statement of how systems will move towards more likely configurations.
For the specific example you give of Joule expansion the (classical) gas molecules are just moving around according to Newton's laws as they collide with each other and the walls of the container. There is no force "telling" the gas to expand to the rest of the container. It's just most likely that we will end up with a uniform gas concentration in the container.
answered 5 hours ago
Aaron StevensAaron Stevens
15.2k42454
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
From your question, it seems that you call force whatever may be considered as a cause of something happening. However, this it is not the way the concept of force is used in Physics nowadays.
For instance, after Galilei, the uniform motion of a free body far from any other system is an process which does not require a force to happen. At variance, it is the fingerprint of the absence of a net force, according to the Newton's definition of force.
The case of the canister is similar. It is the "closed" configuration which implies the presence of a force to constrain the gas molecules to remain inside. When you remove the constrain (open the canister) motion of molecules continues without the confining force. The result is their diffusion in the whole available volume just because that is the most probable macroscopic configuration.
answered 1 hour ago
GiorgioPGiorgioP
4,4591628
$endgroup$
add a comment |
Your Answer
StackExchange.ifUsing("editor", function () {
return StackExchange.using("mathjaxEditing", function () {
StackExchange.MarkdownEditor.creationCallbacks.add(function (editor, postfix) {
StackExchange.mathjaxEditing.prepareWmdForMathJax(editor, postfix, [["$", "$"], ["\\(","\\)"]]);
});
});
}, "mathjax-editing");
StackExchange.ready(function() {
var channelOptions = {
tags: "".split(" "),
id: "151"
};
initTagRenderer("".split(" "), "".split(" "), channelOptions);
StackExchange.using("externalEditor", function() {
// Have to fire editor after snippets, if snippets enabled
if (StackExchange.settings.snippets.snippetsEnabled) {
StackExchange.using("snippets", function() {
createEditor();
});
}
else {
createEditor();
}
});
function createEditor() {
StackExchange.prepareEditor({
heartbeatType: 'answer',
autoActivateHeartbeat: false,
convertImagesToLinks: false,
noModals: true,
showLowRepImageUploadWarning: true,
reputationToPostImages: null,
bindNavPrevention: true,
postfix: "",
imageUploader: {
brandingHtml: "Powered by u003ca class="icon-imgur-white" href="https://imgur.com/"u003eu003c/au003e",
contentPolicyHtml: "User contributions licensed under u003ca href="https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/3.0/"u003ecc by-sa 3.0 with attribution requiredu003c/au003e u003ca href="https://stackoverflow.com/legal/content-policy"u003e(content policy)u003c/au003e",
allowUrls: true
},
noCode: true, onDemand: true,
discardSelector: ".discard-answer"
,immediatelyShowMarkdownHelp:true
});
}
});
Sign up or log in
StackExchange.ready(function () {
StackExchange.helpers.onClickDraftSave('#login-link');
});
Sign up using Google
Sign up using Facebook
Sign up using Email and Password
Post as a guest
Required, but never shown
StackExchange.ready(
function () {
StackExchange.openid.initPostLogin('.new-post-login', 'https%3a%2f%2fphysics.stackexchange.com%2fquestions%2f472159%2fwhat-force-causes-entropy-to-increase%23new-answer', 'question_page');
}
);
Post as a guest
Required, but never shown
2 Answers
2
active
oldest
votes
2 Answers
2
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
$begingroup$
This might not be as detailed as you want, but really all the second law says is that the most likely thing will happen. The reason we can associate certainty with something that seems random is because when we are looking at systems with such a large number of particles, states, etc. anything that is not the most likely is essentially so unlikely that we would have to wait for times longer than he age of the universe to observe them to happen by chance.
Therefore, as you say in your last paragraph, there is no force associated with entropy increase. It's just a statement of how systems will move towards more likely configurations.
For the specific example you give of Joule expansion the (classical) gas molecules are just moving around according to Newton's laws as they collide with each other and the walls of the container. There is no force "telling" the gas to expand to the rest of the container. It's just most likely that we will end up with a uniform gas concentration in the container.
answered 5 hours ago
Aaron StevensAaron Stevens
15.2k42454
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
This might not be as detailed as you want, but really all the second law says is that the most likely thing will happen. The reason we can associate certainty with something that seems random is because when we are looking at systems with such a large number of particles, states, etc. anything that is not the most likely is essentially so unlikely that we would have to wait for times longer than he age of the universe to observe them to happen by chance.
Therefore, as you say in your last paragraph, there is no force associated with entropy increase. It's just a statement of how systems will move towards more likely configurations.
For the specific example you give of Joule expansion the (classical) gas molecules are just moving around according to Newton's laws as they collide with each other and the walls of the container. There is no force "telling" the gas to expand to the rest of the container. It's just most likely that we will end up with a uniform gas concentration in the container.
answered 5 hours ago
Aaron StevensAaron Stevens
15.2k42454
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
This might not be as detailed as you want, but really all the second law says is that the most likely thing will happen. The reason we can associate certainty with something that seems random is because when we are looking at systems with such a large number of particles, states, etc. anything that is not the most likely is essentially so unlikely that we would have to wait for times longer than he age of the universe to observe them to happen by chance.
Therefore, as you say in your last paragraph, there is no force associated with entropy increase. It's just a statement of how systems will move towards more likely configurations.
For the specific example you give of Joule expansion the (classical) gas molecules are just moving around according to Newton's laws as they collide with each other and the walls of the container. There is no force "telling" the gas to expand to the rest of the container. It's just most likely that we will end up with a uniform gas concentration in the container.
answered 5 hours ago
Aaron StevensAaron Stevens
15.2k42454
$endgroup$
This might not be as detailed as you want, but really all the second law says is that the most likely thing will happen. The reason we can associate certainty with something that seems random is because when we are looking at systems with such a large number of particles, states, etc. anything that is not the most likely is essentially so unlikely that we would have to wait for times longer than he age of the universe to observe them to happen by chance.
Therefore, as you say in your last paragraph, there is no force associated with entropy increase. It's just a statement of how systems will move towards more likely configurations.
For the specific example you give of Joule expansion the (classical) gas molecules are just moving around according to Newton's laws as they collide with each other and the walls of the container. There is no force "telling" the gas to expand to the rest of the container. It's just most likely that we will end up with a uniform gas concentration in the container.
answered 5 hours ago
Aaron StevensAaron Stevens
15.2k42454
edited 5 hours ago
answered 5 hours ago
Aaron StevensAaron Stevens
15.2k42454
answered 5 hours ago
Aaron StevensAaron Stevens
15.2k42454
answered 5 hours ago
Aaron StevensAaron Stevens
15.2k42454
15.2k42454
add a comment |
add a comment |
$begingroup$
From your question, it seems that you call force whatever may be considered as a cause of something happening. However, this it is not the way the concept of force is used in Physics nowadays.
For instance, after Galilei, the uniform motion of a free body far from any other system is an process which does not require a force to happen. At variance, it is the fingerprint of the absence of a net force, according to the Newton's definition of force.
The case of the canister is similar. It is the "closed" configuration which implies the presence of a force to constrain the gas molecules to remain inside. When you remove the constrain (open the canister) motion of molecules continues without the confining force. The result is their diffusion in the whole available volume just because that is the most probable macroscopic configuration.
answered 1 hour ago
GiorgioPGiorgioP
4,4591628
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
From your question, it seems that you call force whatever may be considered as a cause of something happening. However, this it is not the way the concept of force is used in Physics nowadays.
For instance, after Galilei, the uniform motion of a free body far from any other system is an process which does not require a force to happen. At variance, it is the fingerprint of the absence of a net force, according to the Newton's definition of force.
The case of the canister is similar. It is the "closed" configuration which implies the presence of a force to constrain the gas molecules to remain inside. When you remove the constrain (open the canister) motion of molecules continues without the confining force. The result is their diffusion in the whole available volume just because that is the most probable macroscopic configuration.
answered 1 hour ago
GiorgioPGiorgioP
4,4591628
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
From your question, it seems that you call force whatever may be considered as a cause of something happening. However, this it is not the way the concept of force is used in Physics nowadays.
For instance, after Galilei, the uniform motion of a free body far from any other system is an process which does not require a force to happen. At variance, it is the fingerprint of the absence of a net force, according to the Newton's definition of force.
The case of the canister is similar. It is the "closed" configuration which implies the presence of a force to constrain the gas molecules to remain inside. When you remove the constrain (open the canister) motion of molecules continues without the confining force. The result is their diffusion in the whole available volume just because that is the most probable macroscopic configuration.
answered 1 hour ago
GiorgioPGiorgioP
4,4591628
$endgroup$
From your question, it seems that you call force whatever may be considered as a cause of something happening. However, this it is not the way the concept of force is used in Physics nowadays.
For instance, after Galilei, the uniform motion of a free body far from any other system is an process which does not require a force to happen. At variance, it is the fingerprint of the absence of a net force, according to the Newton's definition of force.
The case of the canister is similar. It is the "closed" configuration which implies the presence of a force to constrain the gas molecules to remain inside. When you remove the constrain (open the canister) motion of molecules continues without the confining force. The result is their diffusion in the whole available volume just because that is the most probable macroscopic configuration.
answered 1 hour ago
GiorgioPGiorgioP
4,4591628
answered 1 hour ago
GiorgioPGiorgioP
4,4591628
answered 1 hour ago
GiorgioPGiorgioP
4,4591628
answered 1 hour ago
GiorgioPGiorgioP
4,4591628
4,4591628
add a comment |
add a comment |
Thanks for contributing an answer to Physics Stack Exchange!
- Please be sure to answer the question. Provide details and share your research!
But avoid …
- Asking for help, clarification, or responding to other answers.
- Making statements based on opinion; back them up with references or personal experience.
Use MathJax to format equations. MathJax reference.
To learn more, see our tips on writing great answers.
Sign up or log in
StackExchange.ready(function () {
StackExchange.helpers.onClickDraftSave('#login-link');
});
Sign up using Google
Sign up using Facebook
Sign up using Email and Password
Post as a guest
Required, but never shown
StackExchange.ready(
function () {
StackExchange.openid.initPostLogin('.new-post-login', 'https%3a%2f%2fphysics.stackexchange.com%2fquestions%2f472159%2fwhat-force-causes-entropy-to-increase%23new-answer', 'question_page');
}
);
Post as a guest
Required, but never shown
Sign up or log in
StackExchange.ready(function () {
StackExchange.helpers.onClickDraftSave('#login-link');
});
Sign up using Google
Sign up using Facebook
Sign up using Email and Password
Post as a guest
Required, but never shown
Sign up or log in
StackExchange.ready(function () {
StackExchange.helpers.onClickDraftSave('#login-link');
});
Sign up using Google
Sign up using Facebook
Sign up using Email and Password
Post as a guest
Required, but never shown
Sign up or log in
StackExchange.ready(function () {
StackExchange.helpers.onClickDraftSave('#login-link');
});
Sign up using Google
Sign up using Facebook
Sign up using Email and Password
Sign up using Google
Sign up using Facebook
Sign up using Email and Password
Post as a guest
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
3
$begingroup$
If you know it isn't a force then why are you asking what the force is?
$endgroup$
– Aaron Stevens
5 hours ago
1
$begingroup$
Entropy doesn’t have inertia, as far as I know.
$endgroup$
– Dale
2 hours ago
$begingroup$
Your concept of how gasses work is backwards, and that is impeding your ability to reason correctly about entropy. The question is not "what force causes the gas to escape the container?" The question you should be considering is "what force keeps the gas inside the container?" Gas doesn't require a force to expand into a vacuum; it requires a force to not expand into a vacuum! The force is provided by the walls of the container.
$endgroup$
– Eric Lippert
15 mins ago